message for "The Brit"
10-14-2004, 10:37 AM
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message for "The Brit"
I would like to Contact "The Brit"
regarding his opinnion on EVO's 4-wheel-drive system
Can't seem to find an e-mail address for him !
have read his comments for some time now, and, I believe him to be quite an expert on Thé Marquee !
regarding his opinnion on EVO's 4-wheel-drive system
Can't seem to find an e-mail address for him !
have read his comments for some time now, and, I believe him to be quite an expert on Thé Marquee !
10-14-2004, 11:33 AM
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Me? I suspect not...
Sorry, I don't know a great deal about the Evo, I suspect there's another "The Brit" kicking about on the Internet somewhere (I hereby lay claim to the name though!).
Google says <a href="http://www.freegb.net/gbook.cgi?81211=2">this link</a> may contain a pathway to the elusive Evo Brit (I'll have to ask him to change his Internet name to that I think).
Good luck! :-)
Google says <a href="http://www.freegb.net/gbook.cgi?81211=2">this link</a> may contain a pathway to the elusive Evo Brit (I'll have to ask him to change his Internet name to that I think).
Good luck! :-)
10-15-2004, 02:48 PM
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Re: Me? I suspect not...
I think you are thé man I'm looking for if you wrote the very good piece of info about really driving a quattro some time ago, and stating why quattro gets very bad write-ups during car testing.
I just thought you might be knowledgeable about the EVO and how it compares to quattro, to help me solve an argument.
I just thought you might be knowledgeable about the EVO and how it compares to quattro, to help me solve an argument.
10-18-2004, 03:01 AM
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I've harped on about why quattro is underrated before, that much is true...
And I know a little bit about how the Evo's AWD works, but in nowhere as much detail as I know Audi's systems.
What is the particular argument?
What is the particular argument?
10-19-2004, 02:25 PM
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Re: I've harped on about why quattro is underrated before, that much is true...
Thanks for your replies !
If you haven't received the <b><i><font color="#CC0000">W12</font></i></b> yet, I suppose you can't wait !
If you have... I suppose you can't get out of it !
I am just looking for some ammo to blast one of our SA Audi Club forum members that said that Audi must learn from mitsubishi how to build AWD systems...
<b>Which I don't agree with !</b>
I am saying... <b><i><font color="#CC0000">Why fix something that aint broke !</font></i></b><ul><li><a href="http://www.audiclubsa.org.za/forum/forum.asp?target=http%3A//www.network54.com/Forum/thread%3Fforumid%3D199319%26messageid%3D1097217418 %26lp%3D1097672219">http://www.audiclubsa.org.za/forum/forum.asp?target=http%3A//www.network54.com
If you haven't received the <b><i><font color="#CC0000">W12</font></i></b> yet, I suppose you can't wait !
If you have... I suppose you can't get out of it !
I am just looking for some ammo to blast one of our SA Audi Club forum members that said that Audi must learn from mitsubishi how to build AWD systems...
<b>Which I don't agree with !</b>
I am saying... <b><i><font color="#CC0000">Why fix something that aint broke !</font></i></b><ul><li><a href="http://www.audiclubsa.org.za/forum/forum.asp?target=http%3A//www.network54.com/Forum/thread%3Fforumid%3D199319%26messageid%3D1097217418 %26lp%3D1097672219">http://www.audiclubsa.org.za/forum/forum.asp?target=http%3A//www.network54.com
10-20-2004, 03:31 AM
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I'm collecting the W12 on Oct 27th
Audi are flying me business class to Munich and providing hotel accomodation on the nights of the 26th and 27th Oct. On the 27th, I'll visit Ingolsdadt factory and Museum Mobile and collect the car, on the 28th I'll get a visit to Neckarsulm factory and then I'll be driving up through Germany to France. I'll overnight myself in France and Audi are paying for the Eurostar to England. I'm quite impressed with Audi's commitment to this.
As for the ACSA thread, I won't register and post there (needs admin approval), but feel free to quote:
There are some interesting thoughts in this thread, and quite some confusion.
As stated, Audi's main market is not the same market as Mitsubishi have for the Evo, and why should it be? Audi are very successful at selling a whole load of cars into the luxury/comfort market, and it's a testament to the ingenuity and tenaciousness of Audi's engineers that they can give these luxury barges anything approaching sports car levels of performance. Could Mitsubishi make as good a job of turning an Evo into a luxury car suitable for heads of state to be driven around in? No. Audi didn't do a bad job with the RS 6, it's not an ultimate sports car, but it's a luxury car with very strong sporting potential.
Audi don't make track day cars, they make luxury cars that appeal to buyers to whom technological progress and quality of all aspects of the car are important.
As for asking Mitsu about AWD, that would be rather pointless. Many manufacturers have tried over the years to emulate Audi's sporting and road car success with (Torsen) quattro drives, but without being seen to just be copying Audi's design. I doubt Mitsu would have anything to say to Audi that their engineers haven't already thought about and either adopted or discarded for techological or (more likely) market positioning or cost reasons.
4Matic is overweight, over complex and too biased to RWD chassis designs to be a true 4WD/AWD. Porche's early 4WD system used packs of computer controlled clutches to split torque individually to each wheel. It was a very clever ground-breaking system in it's day, but ultimately wasn't able to deliver the requried durability and flexibility that a Porsche should give. BMW's 4WD/AWD solution was another sledgehammer to crack a walnut. All of these other designs have been dropped by their manufacturers in favour of something simpler, or nothing. Torsen-based quattro has evolved and improved with each generation of cars.
The new Evo system is a big improvement in my mind over the previous systems - multi-plate clutch centre diff instead of the prior VC diff, an electronically controlled multi-plate rear diff and a helical front LSD (very similar to a Torsen diff, possibly even a genuine Torsen). Having three torque split points is a very flexible combination, and allows excellent handling characteristics to be built in.
Audi's quattro systems also have a three point split, but as has been stated, the ABS system is used to provide left/right split control on the front and rear axles. The diff on these axles is a free diff with no mechanical limited slip, instead EDL is used to brake the slipping wheel, and the diff transfers torque to the opposite wheel.
Where Torsen-based quattro gains is the inherent capability of the centre diff to adjust torque split in response to the available grip front and rear, whereas electronic systems require time to detect slip and react to it. A centre Torsen will keep you out of trouble for longer.
Audi's preference is for understeer handling, it would be entirely possible to engineer oversteer handling in (in fact oversteer can be induced in a quattro by a dab on the brakes in a corner), but Audi are aiming for safe and predictable handling in the majority of situations. The ESP system is tuned for this behaviour, and there is an inherent side-effect that braking a wheel for directional control will pass it's torque to the other wheel on the axle which effectively is EDL behaviour at speeds above those where EDL is not supposed to operate as an anti-slip device.
As for Audi's future direction, they are keeping their cards very close to the corporate chest, and misinformation and rumour is rife. However, there are various pointers that might indicate where things could head.
Audi's big problem with current Torsen quattro layout is the need for longtitudinal engine and gearbox layout. The entire engine needs to sit in front of the front axle (the gearbox has an integrated Torsen diff and can provide front output shafts at the front of it's package), which with larger egines especailly doesn't help handling.
VAG has a licencing deal with Maserati to develop on the Quattroporte platform, which is a transaxle design. Quite possibly it will be used inside VW, but it could be headed Audi's way as well. This has lead to rumours of Audi going RWD, but that has been strongly denied by VAG. One solution that has been mooted is a transaxle gearbox inlcuding the centre diff, and a second drive shaft coming back forwards to drive the front wheels. The problem with that is weight, but Audi have been rumoured to be researching carbon fibre drive shafts amongst other weight saving solutions. CF is expensive because of it's low manufacture volume, a volume application would drive cost down.
Audi are also moving away from turbo designs, so a straight hp war with Mercedes (AMG) is a losing strategy anyway. Moving away from turbos? Yes, the 450PS W12, the rumoured 420PS V8 and 330PS V6 all point to more naturally aspirated engines in the future. Audi is also selling off Cosworth Technology, who specialise in high-performance conversions of existing engines (2.7 V6 for RS4, 4.2 V8 for RS 6 and 3.0 V6 for Seat race car project). Turbos, intercoolers and the plumbing all add weight too, if you can engineer a higher output from an NA engine, why not save all that? It's a bit of a new ballgame for Audi, but the Gallardo V10 shows they can compete.
Audi are working on chassis technology too. The (working, drivable) Le Mans concept shows an advanced electro-hydraulic suspension system, and I'm sure the Bose electro-magnetic system will have been evaluated as well. The air suspension system first trailled on the Allroad has been improved in the A8 and more dynamic features are finding their way in. Expect Audi to continue to work further on suspension systems that dynamically react to the demands on the car.
Audi needs to produce platforms that are flexible enough to produce the mass of luxury cars that are the bread and butter of their sales, but at the same time enable lower volume performance models to be developed quickly and cost-effectively. In my mind, the direction they appear to be heading will take them there.
As for the ACSA thread, I won't register and post there (needs admin approval), but feel free to quote:
There are some interesting thoughts in this thread, and quite some confusion.
As stated, Audi's main market is not the same market as Mitsubishi have for the Evo, and why should it be? Audi are very successful at selling a whole load of cars into the luxury/comfort market, and it's a testament to the ingenuity and tenaciousness of Audi's engineers that they can give these luxury barges anything approaching sports car levels of performance. Could Mitsubishi make as good a job of turning an Evo into a luxury car suitable for heads of state to be driven around in? No. Audi didn't do a bad job with the RS 6, it's not an ultimate sports car, but it's a luxury car with very strong sporting potential.
Audi don't make track day cars, they make luxury cars that appeal to buyers to whom technological progress and quality of all aspects of the car are important.
As for asking Mitsu about AWD, that would be rather pointless. Many manufacturers have tried over the years to emulate Audi's sporting and road car success with (Torsen) quattro drives, but without being seen to just be copying Audi's design. I doubt Mitsu would have anything to say to Audi that their engineers haven't already thought about and either adopted or discarded for techological or (more likely) market positioning or cost reasons.
4Matic is overweight, over complex and too biased to RWD chassis designs to be a true 4WD/AWD. Porche's early 4WD system used packs of computer controlled clutches to split torque individually to each wheel. It was a very clever ground-breaking system in it's day, but ultimately wasn't able to deliver the requried durability and flexibility that a Porsche should give. BMW's 4WD/AWD solution was another sledgehammer to crack a walnut. All of these other designs have been dropped by their manufacturers in favour of something simpler, or nothing. Torsen-based quattro has evolved and improved with each generation of cars.
The new Evo system is a big improvement in my mind over the previous systems - multi-plate clutch centre diff instead of the prior VC diff, an electronically controlled multi-plate rear diff and a helical front LSD (very similar to a Torsen diff, possibly even a genuine Torsen). Having three torque split points is a very flexible combination, and allows excellent handling characteristics to be built in.
Audi's quattro systems also have a three point split, but as has been stated, the ABS system is used to provide left/right split control on the front and rear axles. The diff on these axles is a free diff with no mechanical limited slip, instead EDL is used to brake the slipping wheel, and the diff transfers torque to the opposite wheel.
Where Torsen-based quattro gains is the inherent capability of the centre diff to adjust torque split in response to the available grip front and rear, whereas electronic systems require time to detect slip and react to it. A centre Torsen will keep you out of trouble for longer.
Audi's preference is for understeer handling, it would be entirely possible to engineer oversteer handling in (in fact oversteer can be induced in a quattro by a dab on the brakes in a corner), but Audi are aiming for safe and predictable handling in the majority of situations. The ESP system is tuned for this behaviour, and there is an inherent side-effect that braking a wheel for directional control will pass it's torque to the other wheel on the axle which effectively is EDL behaviour at speeds above those where EDL is not supposed to operate as an anti-slip device.
As for Audi's future direction, they are keeping their cards very close to the corporate chest, and misinformation and rumour is rife. However, there are various pointers that might indicate where things could head.
Audi's big problem with current Torsen quattro layout is the need for longtitudinal engine and gearbox layout. The entire engine needs to sit in front of the front axle (the gearbox has an integrated Torsen diff and can provide front output shafts at the front of it's package), which with larger egines especailly doesn't help handling.
VAG has a licencing deal with Maserati to develop on the Quattroporte platform, which is a transaxle design. Quite possibly it will be used inside VW, but it could be headed Audi's way as well. This has lead to rumours of Audi going RWD, but that has been strongly denied by VAG. One solution that has been mooted is a transaxle gearbox inlcuding the centre diff, and a second drive shaft coming back forwards to drive the front wheels. The problem with that is weight, but Audi have been rumoured to be researching carbon fibre drive shafts amongst other weight saving solutions. CF is expensive because of it's low manufacture volume, a volume application would drive cost down.
Audi are also moving away from turbo designs, so a straight hp war with Mercedes (AMG) is a losing strategy anyway. Moving away from turbos? Yes, the 450PS W12, the rumoured 420PS V8 and 330PS V6 all point to more naturally aspirated engines in the future. Audi is also selling off Cosworth Technology, who specialise in high-performance conversions of existing engines (2.7 V6 for RS4, 4.2 V8 for RS 6 and 3.0 V6 for Seat race car project). Turbos, intercoolers and the plumbing all add weight too, if you can engineer a higher output from an NA engine, why not save all that? It's a bit of a new ballgame for Audi, but the Gallardo V10 shows they can compete.
Audi are working on chassis technology too. The (working, drivable) Le Mans concept shows an advanced electro-hydraulic suspension system, and I'm sure the Bose electro-magnetic system will have been evaluated as well. The air suspension system first trailled on the Allroad has been improved in the A8 and more dynamic features are finding their way in. Expect Audi to continue to work further on suspension systems that dynamically react to the demands on the car.
Audi needs to produce platforms that are flexible enough to produce the mass of luxury cars that are the bread and butter of their sales, but at the same time enable lower volume performance models to be developed quickly and cost-effectively. In my mind, the direction they appear to be heading will take them there.
10-24-2004, 10:31 AM
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Awesome !
Sorry to only answer your reply at this late stage !
I've already posted your reply on our forum in South Africa ! The guys are impressed !
You really, not only have a great knowledge about Audi, but a fantastic way with words.
Thank you very much for the reply !
I wish you millions of happy miles in the awesome W12. I'm hoping to see one in the flesh on the 29th, at the Auto Africa Expo here in Johannesburg (If Audi brought one in for the occasion ?)
Post us your driving impressions as soon as possible on your return from Germany and France after the weekend.
I will in the meantime just enjoy my 2002 S6 ! Fortunately there is things like the W12 to keep dreams alive -- Enjoy it
Regards
Philip Botha
"Boertjie from South Africa"
I've already posted your reply on our forum in South Africa ! The guys are impressed !
You really, not only have a great knowledge about Audi, but a fantastic way with words.
Thank you very much for the reply !
I wish you millions of happy miles in the awesome W12. I'm hoping to see one in the flesh on the 29th, at the Auto Africa Expo here in Johannesburg (If Audi brought one in for the occasion ?)
Post us your driving impressions as soon as possible on your return from Germany and France after the weekend.
I will in the meantime just enjoy my 2002 S6 ! Fortunately there is things like the W12 to keep dreams alive -- Enjoy it
Regards
Philip Botha
"Boertjie from South Africa"
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