VAP

Funny how when ya get something right, no I mean really, REALLY right ya just know it. It is so high-profile obvious ya just know you're there! Well that's what finally happened, I got "there" yesterday. After 2 years of juggling springs lengths & rates I've finally nailed it. On fronts I've run springs in 25# increments from 350lbs to 725lbs in lengths between 8", 9" & 10". Rears have seen springs between 400# and 875# in 25# increments but only on 8" spring lengths.

Car is now likely sprung as well as it's ever going to be. I'm so confident in it's settings today I'll pull the trigger on those Renton Titanium coilover springs this week. I've wanted them for years but just dont have deep enough pockets to buy em twice. At $500 per corner ya take the time to "know" emperically what you need rather than guess. And until the car is getting very close to it's final weight and front/rear bias stages ya just can't even fathom a guess where it'll end up.

Rate/heights as follows;

Fronts: 525lbs 9" spring
Rears: 750lbs 8" spring

Bear in mind this is on a car that has no sway bars but rather allows the springs to multi-task a number of duties related to compression, rebound, ride height, corner balance, firmness and anti-roll. It's a grueling endeavor finding the right combination with negligible perceived compromise, but doable if you have access to nigh on 60 different rate/height coilover spring sets and tons of free time.

I have mixed feelings about adding a 60% lighter coilover spring set to the rear when I have such a mind-set about front-end weight removal. But I'm over ruled by the desire to have equal spring dynamics at all four corners. And Ti springs have a dynamic behavior all their own... like nothing else in the world as it relates to responsiveness. It's not "all" about the weight-savings on these. I'll just have to double my efforts in the coming weeks to find some front-end weight to remove that I hadn't planned on to equal or beat the rear weight loss these add. And before anyone asks, yes those Ti spring rates reflect the weight and front/rear bias of the finished car rather than as it exists today. Today I'm on 550lb 9"F/725lb 8"R. But I've driven on FAR worse spring combinations getting to where I am today than the Ti rates represent. Besides, I dont have to install them immediately (yeah, like that'll happen ;-)

Got the summer/performance ride-height dialed in yesterday. Today we corner balance. Gorgeous day for it too!<ul><li><a href="http://www.coilspring.com/performance/why_titanium/">Custom Ti coilover springs</a></li></ul>

4Driver4

...rather than lighter springs and a rear sway bar?

VAP

due to it's non strut design. I'd never consider this much spring with any earlier chassis utilizing front/rear struts. Thats also why my McPherson strut front has such a dramatically lighter spring, even with a significantly heavier motor. Figure McPherson struts use a "close to" 1:1 ratio spring/control arm geometry. The rears are closer to 1.5:1 or 2:1.

700/800# springs are altogether common on rear of B5 chassis cars set up for serious performance. And the weight difference between a 300lb spring and an 800lb spring is less than 1.5 lb. Conversely the weight of an added or bigger sway bar can easily run over 10X that much! And another thing no one here is familiar with is the Ohlin's ability to make springs of even 1k ratings or higher ride soft/cushy like they're on 200lb springs. They have so much adjustment they can make a 250lb spring ride like a 600lb spring or a 800lb spring ride like a 150lb spring. But a higher rate spring allows the Ohlins to live longer and springs are cheaper to replace than Ohlins. So far better to use higher rate springs and let them do the work than lower rate and rely on the Ohlins to take that punishment.

Sway bars are used to "cure" an issue thats related to a lack of spring rate. When springs are right you've "prevented" the issue. "Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Doesnt break my heart not having those front/rear 30+lb boat anchors mounted to my sub-frames and/or their associated links, clamps, mounting hardware, let alone it's constant issues from squealing to broken end links. Then there's the issue of picking the inside rear tire/wheel completely off the ground with a sway bar in tight hairpin style turns with sway bars. An impossible eventuality with springs and no sway bar!! And pictures/vids of me on the road course show my car is absolutely 2-4" flatter with the right spring combination than it ever was, or could be with the RS2 front bar and a Neuspeed 22mm rear bar installed, no matter what height/rate coilover springs I ran. And at almost 40lbs lighter than with those components missing, less body roll, fewer parts to break, faster lap times and faster, more immediate suspension response with less weight it's a win/win/win/win/win situation for me!

4Driver4

..."cheat" and avoid using stronger springs that might degrade ride in street cars?
Lighter spring + sway = almost the same characteristics as a heavier spring. The cost being the added weight and potential inner tire lift in hard corners?

VAP

in seriously prepped race cars today are very very small diameter, tubular with very short or even non-existant "clocked" arms on splined ends and used to fine-tune for a specific course or track. You do give up that dynamic with springs but a simple spring change and you're back in the zone. And most street sway bars have no provision for adjustment beyond an extra hole or two and people never seem to even use that when the opportunity arises. The more sophisticated "clocked" sway bars can be infinately adjusted ala NASCAR for different tracks, street etc. But people here arent usually candidates for hollow, tubular clocked-end, infinately adjustable sway bars. Most dont even bother stiffening an aftermarket bar to track from their street settings or leave them at stiffest setting all the time. So there's really no big forfeit there for me.

Big ol' fat sway bars seem limited today to street cars, dual purpose cars and "low-bucks" race efforts. It was always only a cure to an ailment rather than any kind of a fix/remedy.

tecknoquatt

its always nice to hear your input Mance. So since your car will be primarily tracked. With this information in mind. For an "Average Joe" streetable but occassionally tracked B4 body Quattro car, what would be an ideal spring rate for someone that was still using sways.

consider my setup:

2Bennett coilovers
stock front and rear sway
(i have a RS2 front &amp; Neuspeed 19mm rear on hand)
your adjustable links
eibach race 340 per corner


what would be a good suitable spring rate for those with similiar to myself.

would 400-450# front &amp; 550-650# Rear a good recommendation?

VAP

today I find I'm a lot less suited to actually answering than I might like.

I started life with 400/450 and if I never got on a track that would be ok... not great or even really good, but ok.

For street I liked really liked 475/500 but car still under-steered about as badly as stock tho ride quality was TONS better. To get the car back to neutral, where I could instill understeer/oversteer at will with either steering/throttle input while keeping ride street acceptable was at 425F/650 rear. That combination allowed for a near-perfect balance on a 90% street platform but at some compromise in comfort. But the RS2 bar only exerts about 189lbs deflection due to its exceedingly long 21" arms. It's a L-O-T less bar than its diamter would indicate. A very "wussy" bar indeed. Reduce arm length to 6-8" and you'd have a MUCH better/more effective bar. But you'd be above 1k rate rears to ward off the resultant MASSIVE under-steer. This was also the very F/R spring rates that dictated the RS2 bar became a waste tho the rear 22mm bar alone was wonderful!

I'll go a teensie bit out on a limb and recommend trying 400/600 and lose all swaybars. It may not be your ideal. But it would be a great jumping-off point. You'd be in a far better psotion to "feel" where you need to go from there.

The one thing I find in all of car culture is that people have this funny fear about stiffer springs. The rumors, myths and old wives tales are rampant. Everyone knows someone or has talked to someone about the altogether unjustified doom &amp; gloom fables associated with heavier springs. That they should "err on the side of conservatism." I did that for years and couldn't decide. For me I had a LOT better luck and got dialed in a LOT sonner by going outrageously bigger than imagineable then backing down on rates than I ever achieved going up in rates. Even if it's wrong going too big just doesnt hurt anything. Going too small breaks and wreaks havoc on all kinds a stuff.

Stop listening to the nay-sayers and do-gooders. Take a walk on the wild side and see how much quicker this whole suspension dilemma starts to come together by going "off-the-chart" big than listening to those that haven't yet even tried it.... but they've "heard." ;-)

BTW, my car will never be a "primarily tracked" car. It will be primarily street tho I fully expect 25% track car. Tho the car will only likely see 1,900-2,100 miles annually. It'll be a beautiful day in the mountain twisties car. I dont have decades left. I have to budget the balance of this cars reasonable lifetime. Put us both on the same mortality clock. Unless I can machine a way to take it with me ;-)

quattro.pilot

this is of course with using swaybars, so the springs have less duty to perform. As Mance has mentioned I have tossed the RS2 front bar idea out the window; though it's doubtful I will ever see my product or my refunded money from Ubernugen. I will however change out the rear to a B5q Neuspeed unit.

I think I've pretty much settled in at the rates that I like and which most complement the set-up of the vehicle. Certainly going stiffer was the best move i ever made. I believe I started out in the high-300's but very quickly started jumping up through the 4's and then into 5-600. The ride definitely suffers as you get this stiff, it's nowhere near unbearable and have the UrS4 seats makes up for undesirable roughness.

For where my car is at it handles exceptionally, and my limiting factor at this point are the crap tires (Toyo T1-R). We'll see if the bigger rear bar can tame some understeer, but i'll be VERY much happier once i have a stronger motor. I'm sure that one day I'll give the no-swaybars thing a go. I just don't want to begin chasing spring rates all over again. It gets expensive after a while, so since I'm not a super-picky and hardcore track driver I'll likely learn to be content with the cars current setup...minor tweeks will surely follow.

VAP

any spring at/near 500# rate renders any/every sway bar made specifically for these cars obsolete and worthless. Totally overcomes their efforts by a HEFTY margin!

quattro.pilot

&lt;experiences&gt; I'm a lot more willing to try it out. And already having the stiff rates i suppose just puts me in a better place to start off.

considering a neuspeed bar costs around $250, well there's a complete spring change-out should I need to fine tune.

cool, i'm excited now.