RS4 or WRX Sti? Coming from an E46 M3
12-16-2012, 10:44 PM
#11
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For those interested, I ask the same question to Subaru fans.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gr-gener...me-decide.html
Hope to hear more feedback from Audi fans on this comparison discussion.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gr-gener...me-decide.html
Hope to hear more feedback from Audi fans on this comparison discussion.
12-17-2012, 07:21 PM
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For those interested, I ask the same question to Subaru fans.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gr-gener...me-decide.html
Hope to hear more feedback from Audi fans on this comparison discussion.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gr-gener...me-decide.html
Hope to hear more feedback from Audi fans on this comparison discussion.
The two cars are so different I'm not really sure that anything we can say to you would sway
you one way or another. You can clearly make an STI faster for cheaper than you can an RS4
so if tune ability is what you want without true regard for luxury it's an easy decision. If you want
a semi-luxury feel in a very engaging package the. An RS4 becomes the clear choice. I think your
use of the car is also a big deal. The STI is more balanced on a road course so screwing around with
them in my RS is always a huge challenge but certainly doable. If you want to hand out at the drag strip
then the STI is the clear winner. I don't think I would be taken too seriously professionally driving an STI,
but if ur in a position where that doesn't matter then that holds no value. You really just have to drive both
cars back to back and hopefully the decision becomes clear for you.
12-19-2012, 05:54 AM
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This is apples and oranges, OP. As many have said, completely different cars in every way imaginable. The RS brings a sense of sophisticated refinement that the STI just doesn't have. As to the tunability, I can't disagree with you there, the STI is probably night and day better as far as cost and results go.
Still, to me, it's a no brainer. RS4 FTW.
Still, to me, it's a no brainer. RS4 FTW.
12-19-2012, 06:18 PM
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This is apples and oranges, OP. As many have said, completely different cars in every way imaginable. The RS brings a sense of sophisticated refinement that the STI just doesn't have. As to the tunability, I can't disagree with you there, the STI is probably night and day better as far as cost and results go.
Still, to me, it's a no brainer. RS4 FTW.
Still, to me, it's a no brainer. RS4 FTW.
However both have near identical 0-60, 1/4 mile and fuel efficiency. Both have performance AWD and 6 speed manuals. Both have similar handling performance. Both 4 door etc.
An RS4 and a Z06 are apples and oranges. An RS4 and a Lotus Elise are too.
Stong, I went to see the RS tonight after work but it was too late for a test drive. I got to sit in the car and fire it up and here are my initial impressions.
- exterior
I think the B7 RS4 is the best looking sedan in the world. And seeing it in person confirmed it. I love the combination of classy practical low-key family car look combined with aggressive don't mess with me I'm FAST. Favorite style cues were the headlights (Audi makes the best headlights ever RS4 mad R8 at the top of the list). And I loved the wide body stance and fenders. I think in comparison a S4 or A4 look ugly and boring without the wide body.
- interior
Dash and centre console looks great and upscale. Steering wheel felt great if a LOT lighter compared to my E46 M3.
Buttons on centre console looked a bit cheap however. Like they would almost get stuck and I had to hit the fan control several times to get it going.
Leather looked worn for a 70000 km car (my M is 5 years older same km and is in better shape)
- engine
It was like -7c and engine wasn't warmed up so I didn't rev it past 2500 rpm but my prejudice about V8 engine sound was killed. I always thought based on YouTube videos that V8s don't sound good on well insulated German cars, but was wrong. That V8 sounded fantastic at part throttle low rpm. I am curious to how it will sound at full throttle high rpm.
I am gonna test drive it on Friday. Will keep you guys updated and let you know my impressions after the test drive.
12-20-2012, 05:23 PM
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12-22-2012, 08:28 PM
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I havnt quite decided yet 
But I did test drive the car yesterday and here are my thoughts. I'll divide them into categories like before covering what was missing:
Overall, the RS4 lives up to it's reputation. It is fast, it sounds phenomenal, handling is precise and it has what appears infinite amounts of grip.
The engine and AWD system are the two most outstanding aspects (not the luxury). The V8 is very comparable to the E92 M3 engine, but it felt like it had a more torque and spun very fast. My E46 M3's 3 liter inline six spins slower in comparison (probably due to the lower torque and longer gear ratios). 8250 rpm came by in the blink of an eye. I'm quite accustomed with high revving engines coming from the M3, however, I was still unprepared by how quickly redline came in 1st and 2nd gears, and I hit the rev limiter a couple of times by mistake.
The engine sound lives up to it's fame as well. It sounds really great throughout the rpm and throttle range. YouTube videos simply do not do justice to the sound of V8 engines. I had the same thing happen when I drove the E92 M3. On youtubes I didnt really like the engine sound, but in person, I couldnt stop saying how great it sounded. As I had expected, the stock exhaust was not audible inside the well insulated cabin, and a Milltek or equivalent would be a must first mod.
Test conditions were -20C temperature, dry roads, and summer performance tires (I'm assuming stock, I honestly didnt check which tires were on, just noticed the summer perf. thread). My own M3 would have been spinning tires as if I were driving on a frozen lake. But I was shocked with the amount of grip that this car had with summer performance tires on a -20C evening. I cant imagine on a set of Blizzak LM-60s in winter, or on the summers in 30C weather.
Coming from a SMG car (sequential gearbox for those not familiar), and the fact that I do not drive manual cars regularly, I will say I cannot be a great judge for a manual tranny, but I can say that the travel of the shifter felt very long and at times I had trouble catching a gear. This could however also be attributed to the -20C temperature and the fact that the car had been sitting in a lot the entire day. In any case, I must remind myself to never buy another car ever that does not have a 6 speed tranny. The feeling of control and involvement is just not there without that third pedal. And who cares if shifts are a little slower than a sequential or dual clutch.
Unfortunately, most of the test drive involved straight line driving, so I was not able to test the handling and cornering capabilities of the car. I might have to go back for a second test drive to do just that on a warmer dry day. But I can tell you I loved the suspension. It was a perfect balance of comfort and handling. Coming from the back-breaking pre-05 MY M3 suspension, it felt like going from a go-kart to normal car.
Straight line acceleration felt great, similar to the STI, my E46 M3 and E92 M3. The car has plenty of power. What really struck me, is the torque. This car had more torque than either E92 or E46 M3s, especially at low RPMs. I generally test torque at 4000-4500 rpm in 2nd or 3rd gear in most test drives, and the RS4 kicked me into the back of the seat when I pushed that pedal, which is a great feeling.
Throttle response was superb, and I will say better than an M3 and comparable if not better than the STI.
I didnt get a chance to really test the brakes, but if there is one negative comment I had about the car, it is that compared to the M3s and STI, I felt every one of the 3900 lbs resisting the change in momentum when I braked hard. But honestly, maybe I just didnt push the brake pedal hard or far enough. Perhaps, the brake pedal response and travel is very different than the M or STI. In this regard, nothing beats IMO the brake feel and power of the STI's Brembos. Stopping in an STI feels like you might lose your eyeballs if you dont hang on to them.
Last, but not least, technology and adjustability. Honestly speaking, I'm a "tech" kind of guy and do not mind progress and innovation, but only if they add to the experience and performance, not detract from it. And one thing I can say that is a great selling point for me when it comes to the RS4, it is the absolute lack of traction control, throttle response, suspension and other settings in the car. You just turn the ignition key, put it into first, and GO. Love it. And I dont consider the S button as "adjustability".
All in all, I was very impressed with the car in the 20 minutes that I drove it. I cannot say outright that it is a better car than either the STI or the M3. There is a reason why there are legions of M3 and STI fans out there, just as there are RS4 fans. All 3 are phenomenal fun cars to drive. The question at this point is, am I willing to let go of my beloved, legendary M3 for this car or the STI. It's almost like saying bye to your first home where you grew up, or to an old friend which you will not see anymore, mixed with the excitement and wonders of a new adventure in life.
If I had infinite amount of money, I wouldnt be writing this. I would own all 3 cars. And one day, when I have a spare 40-50,000 that I have absolutely no idea what to do with, I would not have to make sacrifices. But for now, with this test drive, I have made one more step towards the world of AWD and 6-speed manuals, and am one step further from the world of RWD and Sequential Gearboxes.
After all, I live in Canada...not California, and AWD is a way of life here. The Audi Quattro commerical demonstrates this very well.
My GF's brother agreed to let me drive his 320 whp modded STI sometime soon. And he will be driving my M3.
I will give you guys my feedback of the STI after that drive.
Wish buying a new car was a much simpler endeavor as for most people who buy Ford Edges, Kia Optimas and and BMW X3s.
Silverflake
But I did test drive the car yesterday and here are my thoughts. I'll divide them into categories like before covering what was missing:Overall, the RS4 lives up to it's reputation. It is fast, it sounds phenomenal, handling is precise and it has what appears infinite amounts of grip.
The engine and AWD system are the two most outstanding aspects (not the luxury). The V8 is very comparable to the E92 M3 engine, but it felt like it had a more torque and spun very fast. My E46 M3's 3 liter inline six spins slower in comparison (probably due to the lower torque and longer gear ratios). 8250 rpm came by in the blink of an eye. I'm quite accustomed with high revving engines coming from the M3, however, I was still unprepared by how quickly redline came in 1st and 2nd gears, and I hit the rev limiter a couple of times by mistake.
The engine sound lives up to it's fame as well. It sounds really great throughout the rpm and throttle range. YouTube videos simply do not do justice to the sound of V8 engines. I had the same thing happen when I drove the E92 M3. On youtubes I didnt really like the engine sound, but in person, I couldnt stop saying how great it sounded. As I had expected, the stock exhaust was not audible inside the well insulated cabin, and a Milltek or equivalent would be a must first mod.
Test conditions were -20C temperature, dry roads, and summer performance tires (I'm assuming stock, I honestly didnt check which tires were on, just noticed the summer perf. thread). My own M3 would have been spinning tires as if I were driving on a frozen lake. But I was shocked with the amount of grip that this car had with summer performance tires on a -20C evening. I cant imagine on a set of Blizzak LM-60s in winter, or on the summers in 30C weather.
Coming from a SMG car (sequential gearbox for those not familiar), and the fact that I do not drive manual cars regularly, I will say I cannot be a great judge for a manual tranny, but I can say that the travel of the shifter felt very long and at times I had trouble catching a gear. This could however also be attributed to the -20C temperature and the fact that the car had been sitting in a lot the entire day. In any case, I must remind myself to never buy another car ever that does not have a 6 speed tranny. The feeling of control and involvement is just not there without that third pedal. And who cares if shifts are a little slower than a sequential or dual clutch.
Unfortunately, most of the test drive involved straight line driving, so I was not able to test the handling and cornering capabilities of the car. I might have to go back for a second test drive to do just that on a warmer dry day. But I can tell you I loved the suspension. It was a perfect balance of comfort and handling. Coming from the back-breaking pre-05 MY M3 suspension, it felt like going from a go-kart to normal car.
Straight line acceleration felt great, similar to the STI, my E46 M3 and E92 M3. The car has plenty of power. What really struck me, is the torque. This car had more torque than either E92 or E46 M3s, especially at low RPMs. I generally test torque at 4000-4500 rpm in 2nd or 3rd gear in most test drives, and the RS4 kicked me into the back of the seat when I pushed that pedal, which is a great feeling.
Throttle response was superb, and I will say better than an M3 and comparable if not better than the STI.
I didnt get a chance to really test the brakes, but if there is one negative comment I had about the car, it is that compared to the M3s and STI, I felt every one of the 3900 lbs resisting the change in momentum when I braked hard. But honestly, maybe I just didnt push the brake pedal hard or far enough. Perhaps, the brake pedal response and travel is very different than the M or STI. In this regard, nothing beats IMO the brake feel and power of the STI's Brembos. Stopping in an STI feels like you might lose your eyeballs if you dont hang on to them.
Last, but not least, technology and adjustability. Honestly speaking, I'm a "tech" kind of guy and do not mind progress and innovation, but only if they add to the experience and performance, not detract from it. And one thing I can say that is a great selling point for me when it comes to the RS4, it is the absolute lack of traction control, throttle response, suspension and other settings in the car. You just turn the ignition key, put it into first, and GO. Love it. And I dont consider the S button as "adjustability".
All in all, I was very impressed with the car in the 20 minutes that I drove it. I cannot say outright that it is a better car than either the STI or the M3. There is a reason why there are legions of M3 and STI fans out there, just as there are RS4 fans. All 3 are phenomenal fun cars to drive. The question at this point is, am I willing to let go of my beloved, legendary M3 for this car or the STI. It's almost like saying bye to your first home where you grew up, or to an old friend which you will not see anymore, mixed with the excitement and wonders of a new adventure in life.
If I had infinite amount of money, I wouldnt be writing this. I would own all 3 cars. And one day, when I have a spare 40-50,000 that I have absolutely no idea what to do with, I would not have to make sacrifices. But for now, with this test drive, I have made one more step towards the world of AWD and 6-speed manuals, and am one step further from the world of RWD and Sequential Gearboxes.
After all, I live in Canada...not California, and AWD is a way of life here. The Audi Quattro commerical demonstrates this very well.
My GF's brother agreed to let me drive his 320 whp modded STI sometime soon. And he will be driving my M3.
I will give you guys my feedback of the STI after that drive.
Wish buying a new car was a much simpler endeavor as for most people who buy Ford Edges, Kia Optimas and and BMW X3s.
Silverflake
12-22-2012, 09:24 PM
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Silverflake- Quite a write up! I admire your patience and annalytical approach. I am much to emotional when it comes to cars.
When I look at the RS4 I get weak in the knees. The bulging fenders, the beatiful stock wheels, the 4 glistening rings, the beautiful head lights, the exquisite interior, the steering wheel and Recaro seats, the friggen beautiful engine, then add in the V8 / sound / quattro / performance / comfort / quality materials and I'm mush ... gotta have it.
I can honestly say when I look at the Subie I have very little emotion. I know the car is awesome and easy to modify I just don't feel anything. Sorry but it's a rather cartoon-ish looking car and I can't get excited about owning it. When I sit in the cockpit my first impression is "plastic". Do I want to drive it and thrash it? Hell yes I'm a car guy! but then I want to give it back.
When I grab my RS4 keys I get excited. When I see it sitting in the garage my pulse increases. When I turn the key I smile. When I punch it I want to scream out loud. When I wash it I marvel at the quality of the paint. When I fill it up with gas 80% of the time I end up in a conversation with some guy. When I drive down the road I like that I never see another RS4 (rarely).
I guess what I'm saying is I absolutely love this car. It goes way beyond the sum of the parts.
Good luck on your decision. I will be interested to hear where you finally land.
When I look at the RS4 I get weak in the knees. The bulging fenders, the beatiful stock wheels, the 4 glistening rings, the beautiful head lights, the exquisite interior, the steering wheel and Recaro seats, the friggen beautiful engine, then add in the V8 / sound / quattro / performance / comfort / quality materials and I'm mush ... gotta have it.
I can honestly say when I look at the Subie I have very little emotion. I know the car is awesome and easy to modify I just don't feel anything. Sorry but it's a rather cartoon-ish looking car and I can't get excited about owning it. When I sit in the cockpit my first impression is "plastic". Do I want to drive it and thrash it? Hell yes I'm a car guy! but then I want to give it back.
When I grab my RS4 keys I get excited. When I see it sitting in the garage my pulse increases. When I turn the key I smile. When I punch it I want to scream out loud. When I wash it I marvel at the quality of the paint. When I fill it up with gas 80% of the time I end up in a conversation with some guy. When I drive down the road I like that I never see another RS4 (rarely).
I guess what I'm saying is I absolutely love this car. It goes way beyond the sum of the parts.
Good luck on your decision. I will be interested to hear where you finally land.
12-23-2012, 06:59 PM
#20
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My profile is almost a carbon copy of 'stong'. Had an 01 WRX that was modded to STI spec+ and ran a bunch of track days. Loved the car and a bit sad to see it go but, the RS4 is a far superior car. Safety, no question where I would rather be.
Unique, yup.
Looks like Bond would drive it? Check.
Strangers will talk to you about it. Yes
Police will ask how you like it at roadchecks? I was unprepared for that. (a week after I bought it)
Style that never gets old. - No one disagrees. (Perhaps the Subie's weakest point.)
Comfort- you can drive it daily and love it. My WRX was a little harsh on the cold mornings.
No major maintainance issues. Brakes are stellar and handle intense track days with no mods. Race pads will last longer but stock will do if your track is not too brake heavy. Pads can be changed without removing the calipers. 1 hour going really slow, hand tools only, in my home garage from start to finish. Only a few bucks when I get my mech to do it.
One advantage of a fully factory car is that on a modded car if you ever have a crash and it's written off just try to get back the money put in. I was there once and it was a pain. Needed to go to arbitration to get close. Ins. Co's don't really recognize mods.
With the RS4, you don't need to modify it for the street but need anti-rollbars for track days, that's it.
My brother has the current M3, and on the track the Audi is way more stable putting power on. The difference is pretty shocking. It took three sessions for him to let me turn the trac. cont. off; tells you how over powered the rear is. The Audi is a little more forgiving in that respect. BTW that is the only PITA I have to report about the RS4, to get TC fully off you have to hold down the the TC button for exactly 5 seconds. The amber light on the dash comes on and stays lit. It will burn out one day soon. ; )
You might read a bunch of critics crying about understeer. The car is set up to do that to avoid legal issues. I have the Hotchkis antiroll bar set; now the car is near neutral and will oversteer if you intend it. There is no appreciable penalty in terms of ride.
In short, love it.
Oh and of course winters in Canada are a little easier with AWD.
PS. If you think it sounded great just add the ECS H pipe and it will knock your socks off. Easily passes the wife test with S button off. Mine didn't notice. With the S button on and the mufflers open it sounds electric.
Unique, yup.
Looks like Bond would drive it? Check.
Strangers will talk to you about it. Yes
Police will ask how you like it at roadchecks? I was unprepared for that. (a week after I bought it)
Style that never gets old. - No one disagrees. (Perhaps the Subie's weakest point.)
Comfort- you can drive it daily and love it. My WRX was a little harsh on the cold mornings.
No major maintainance issues. Brakes are stellar and handle intense track days with no mods. Race pads will last longer but stock will do if your track is not too brake heavy. Pads can be changed without removing the calipers. 1 hour going really slow, hand tools only, in my home garage from start to finish. Only a few bucks when I get my mech to do it.
One advantage of a fully factory car is that on a modded car if you ever have a crash and it's written off just try to get back the money put in. I was there once and it was a pain. Needed to go to arbitration to get close. Ins. Co's don't really recognize mods.
With the RS4, you don't need to modify it for the street but need anti-rollbars for track days, that's it.
My brother has the current M3, and on the track the Audi is way more stable putting power on. The difference is pretty shocking. It took three sessions for him to let me turn the trac. cont. off; tells you how over powered the rear is. The Audi is a little more forgiving in that respect. BTW that is the only PITA I have to report about the RS4, to get TC fully off you have to hold down the the TC button for exactly 5 seconds. The amber light on the dash comes on and stays lit. It will burn out one day soon. ; )
You might read a bunch of critics crying about understeer. The car is set up to do that to avoid legal issues. I have the Hotchkis antiroll bar set; now the car is near neutral and will oversteer if you intend it. There is no appreciable penalty in terms of ride.
In short, love it.
Oh and of course winters in Canada are a little easier with AWD.
PS. If you think it sounded great just add the ECS H pipe and it will knock your socks off. Easily passes the wife test with S button off. Mine didn't notice. With the S button on and the mufflers open it sounds electric.
Last edited by Kringle; 12-23-2012 at 11:10 PM.