Tim Sawyer

on your KW coilovers. You are without a doubt not only the voice of reason on the forum, but also the voice of authority when it comes to actually putting your money where your mouth is. For this you deserve all of our support and appreciation. Like youI also have a humble but much enjoyed 180 FWD. I am with you on the Borla, am sending APR my spare ECU for their new switchable chip, and have the caractere slotted bumber. SSR integrals are next but....I hate my H&R springs, I frankly find them unnaceptable in trems of how badly the car bounces/jounces over sharper dips and lips on the highway. It is clear to me that your description of the stock rear shock is accurate. They are poorly, to be kind, matched to the spring. I am now committed to doing something about this and since Bilstein continues to waffle (although they do have actual part numbers now) coilovers is the only way. My question. Level with me on your opinion of the KW vs. HR. You chose (in the end) HR. Why? Is there a fundamental diffreence in your experience, in quality, approach to solving the problem, materials etc. Bottom line I am interested and certainly your price is more than fair. But as you aptly point out I only want to do this one more time. So for 750 we can do business (i think that was your price) or I can step and go for broke.
Anyway, if you would be so good as to give some input please feel free to email me.
reagrds and thanks anyaway for all your good wisdom.

Colonel Bogey

without properly valved dampers to control dramatic increases in spring rates. Common goof is to go with stiffer, lowering springs w/o a damper change. Correct order is dampers alone (most people stop here) then go to bigger anti-roll bars and then add stiffer springs if you are looking to accept further compromises to wring out even better handling. Now, bear in mind that many folks have made the spring change alone cuz Bilsteins have not been available due to the whole OEM suspension snafu. There are no doubt a whole lotta' people out there anxiously awaiting proper dampers who are not considering ANY other suspension change.

Did you know that our OEM dampers are Monros fer' christ sake? Yea, Monros! Audi cut us a short one on this specification to say nothing of valving specs. designed for a much softer spring.

If you were to keep what you've got and add Bilsteins (whenever they are released) You would be doing back flips over the change. Promise.

Of course, coil-overs are altogether a whole nother' step in the handling/performance program where you can really dial in the handling. Components are matched, corner weights and balance can be perfected (I put my weight on the drivers seat with barbells and get it perfect) and wedge is adjustible. For me, this is where "its" at: going through a 40MPH curve @ 9.9 tenths is a much bigger rush than straight-lining at 150MPH.

In the end, one must bear in mind: Out of the box this car is a great handling, all around good driver. At the other end of the continuum is a tweeked car that handles outrageously good but, rides like a full-blown race car on the way to work or the grocery store. Many, many people have regretted the change after making it. You are smart to think this through carefully for yourself as to what you really want/need. It can be a very $$ mistake for some people.

That having been said...ExTTreme, where is the R&D program at for adjustable camber plates and anti-roll bars?

VAP

First and foremost I'm a Bilstein fan. Have been since the early 70's. Bilstein was there for me early on in my racing genesis. They didnt give me any prize or contingency money but they gave me shocks. They were nice guys, but most importantly they had the best product shock-wise.

Comparing Bilstein and Koni objectively I have to give the nod to Bilstein in both ride quality and longevity. A Bilstein will dampen as small a deflection as 2mm. The Koni will require closer to 10mm before it starts to dampen deflection. Bilstein is an inert gas-charged (Nitrogen) shock/strut assembly that diminishes/eliminates internal shock oil from foaming and thus cavitating, where it starts to blow oil/air bubbles thru its metering valve system instead of just oil causing poor/inconsistent damping/rebound qualities. Consequently Koni consistently valves their shock for harsher/stiffer rides (I believe to compensate for cavitation IMHO). You compress a Bilstein by hand and it returns under its internal Nitrogen pressure charge to its pre-compressed height. Compress a Koni and it stays where you compress it to.

Bilstein shocks are always guaranteed for life. Konis are guaranteed for a year to the original purchaser. I dont know if Bilstein puts the same iron-clad (almost Sears tool-type) warranty on its coilovers, but its worthy of mention. And the thing that most affected my tainted look on Koni was years ago (late '70's) I sat in on a Koni distributors meeting while some muckety-muck from Koni Int'l stood up front and schooled the distributors in how to get out of honoring even bona-fide and credible warranty issues with shocks the dealers were getting back. Shocks my friends and racing buddies had sheeled out their hard-earned cash at a time in our lives when ANY of us could least afford to be engaging in something as frivolous and irresponsible as racing in an organization that gave us medals and trophies even wehn we won regional/national events... no $$$... EVER! We built/raced and worked our butts off for free. And we wouldnt have had it any other way. Then somone comes along and starts schooling its distributors who are taking our money for their shocks and tells them "do anything you can to get more money from them... anything except give them a new shock even when its a design flaw or workmanship or manufacturing defect. Sometimes it wont work... most times it will."

Knowing what I know today Tim, I would pass on my hot-smoking K&W offer and go with H&R if you can afford it. My K&W's arent bad. They have some great features with more spring-height adjustability and adjustable (rebound only) valving that H&R doesnt. The K&W spring perches are a better/stronger design front and rear. And honestly they WILL dramatically improve your TT's handling. And they are a "bargain." But Tim... they are NO Bilstein. And you would NEVER know the difference, till you drove and H&R'd TT.

Ride quality on H&Rs is actually better than stock... WAY better with no bounciness or harshness. Its firmer to be sure but its a good kinda firmness. And it manifests itself in no other way. The shocks dont allow for bounciness. But all this is an apples-to apples statement. If you do coilovers andkeep stock ride-height (hard to imagine) it will just be a much enhanced, more stable and precise ride. Only when you start your hunt for lowered ride-height do you start to encounter stiffness. And it does get stiffer... make no mistake about that. But its never harsh, abrasive, bone-jarring or uncivilized. Again, Bilstein internals prevail.

I firmly believe anyone here would love this conversion once they experienced it. The only reason everyone doesnt have them is they've never ridden in one with it. I could talk here till (I cant belive I'm gonna use my moms line here) "I'm blue in the face." But until most feel this they're gonna sit back and take the "wait and see" apporaoch and probably never quite find the time or funds for this conversion. But let them drive one... just once and they'll be ALL OVER SOME... summarily, on the spot!

Coilovers have this hard, brutal, for-racing-only stigma that doesnt go away by word alone. But let someone drive one with it... not on a race track, but just their normal workday commute and you cant talk em out of it. Then in 20 years, after they've put them on every subsequent car they've driven since today this becomes their soapbox and I'm whiling away time in an assisted living community dreaming of whats really important... NURSES!

TTinHongKong

one will never kno until driven one.<p>180FWD/17" BBS RXII/BS S-02 PP/Pipercross Filter/PIAA/Wetterauer/Remus/GReddy Turbo gauge-A-pillar mount/Forge Motorsport recirculated dump valve/NGK Iridium Spark Plugs/Abt steel flex brake lines/H&R coilovers
http://www.geocities.com/ttinhk

eharleq

I have both on other cars and I have to disagree with your analysis. I also prefer H&R and Bilstein, but for entirely different reasons.

Koni hydraulics (the non-pressurized ones) are deliberately designed not to come back up in the manner described. This allows racers to get a .5" drop with the shocks alone, exceptionally useful in a stock racing class. They certainly do NOT have a 10mm movement without dampening. I run them on my track car and we measure the travel and it dampens in just a couple of mm's. (Range of error with the seal portrusion.)

The adjustment of the street Konis is a useful tuning feature. The REAL race konis are much superior as far as seal life and adj. control/revalving.

The pressurized Bilstein is great if you are running too soft a spring because the rebound is firmer than a std. street Koni. Bilstein seals are also better than the std. Koni. But the REAL advantage of a street Bilstein is for the front of Mac strut cars (A3 chassis, not A4). The piston takes the side loads much better and does have better piston travel response.

The H&R kits are far better than the average kits, particularly with tender springs. Many, many kits from famous firms ARE poorly developed for the street. I have had to rebuild two kits from Audi world supporting vendors and they still are marginal: poor travel and mismatched rates. Be very careful out there with advice.

VAP

The Koni cavitates and exhibits "flat spots" in cycling and the dyno shows once warm and cycled rapidly, does in fact show 10mm and up to .500" and more "free ride" on both compression and rebound stroke... length it is travelling with zero resistence. And that is cavitaion... a phenomenon rendered almost completely non-existent in a sealed pressure vessel.

Conversely the Bilstein exhibits none of the same characteristics under rapid cycling with anywhere from 0-1200lb loads and 1/2" - 3" random cycle rates at 180 per minute. Interestingly the same test completely destroyed the Koni. It catastrophically failed and blew all its oil out the top seal in less than 40 seconds. I think that also speaks gobs about what you said about Bilstein having a far superior side load and piston travel response. Also check out the diameter of a front Bilstein vs Koni hardened and ground rod diameters. Bilstein again has over 50% greater diameter in almost every application. And a Bilstein street shock has a greater diameter rod than a Koni competition (motorsprot div.) shock. I dont want to argue or beat you up over this but you've got a tough job trying to sell me on Koni for use on anything more sophisticated than a paperweight. Dissect one of each. The evidence just wont support it. Whats your warranty with Koni in a non-coilover configuration? Bilstein is "LIFE"... no questions asked. Koni wouldnt DARE!

No Koni shock is designed to allow more "drop" in a vehicles ride height by not being gas charged. The reason they offer a line of no gas-charged shocks is simple... "cost." They have a more "sport" oriented shock that is available for most "sports" applications that is in fact a Nitrogen-filled, gas charged shock. And it costs over 50% more than their non gas strut/shock. Additionally the charging pressure in a Bilstein or a Koni gas shock is only between 10-14psi. Hardly enough to hold any corner of ANY car up .500" higher than a non gas-charged shock. Additionally SCCA doesnt penalize for a 1/2" drop or run anyone out of stock class unless springs have been changed or rates altered. You could even cut a coil (God forbid, tho we used to do it ALL the time) and still be stock.

But I do agree with you on racing shocks... from Bilstein or Koni. Each is a far cry from what we see in autonmotive rather than the motorsport division of each of those outfits. All four corners of a Camel Lights car with Bilsteins was over $9k and required spares, spare parts and 60-80 hour rebuilds with cooling/adjustment/filtration and overflow/recharge reservoirs at each corner. But they were SERIOUSLY accurately adjustable shocks. And that was over 10 years ago.

Shocks will always be "personal" among enthusiasts. Kinda like chocolate/vanilla/Chevys and Fords. But in this one particular instance there is a preponderance of physical evidence that bears out Bilstein as a better product from a purely quality-of-component as well as performance standpoint to both mechanical engineer & layman alike.

None of this takes into account mismatched suspension components, under/over rated springs or bad math. It is merely a comparison of a Bilstein gas-charged shock/strut compared to a non gas-charged Koni shock/strut on an identical application.

eharleq

Sure, if you put a street unpressurized-Koni on a dyno and cycle it endlessly, you will get fluid boiling and loss of dampning. If you do it long enough, you will get more than 10mm of unrestrained travel. I can also cycle the Bilsteins and get the same problem (well after the Koni). Yes, N2 is a good thing, since 1970.

The unpressurized adj. Koni is a specialized application and does deliberately allow a chassis drop. Ask any other SCCA/Ax lister. The unpressurized Koni is useful for a 2min. max ax run.

The charging pressure is a minor, but present issue, it is the "higher compression rate of the Bilstein."

Cutting your coil is automatic violation of the Stock class-SCCA rules. Sure cheating is rampant, but its still illegal. You may be referring to the legal use of a .5" variance for the spring location on the legal aftermarket spring perch.