I WON!!!!! Stage III+
12-22-2005, 12:46 PM
#21
You really just don't "get" our company philosophy....
I guess you have been too blinded by other companies to really look at our innovations and technologies in the last few years to see what we are really doing. NO other company has grown and reinvested in the company like APR has in the last few years. NO other Audi/VW company designs cast components on a regular basis like we do. NO other company in the INDUSTRY has come up with tuning, program switching, and flashing on the same level that we have. Even you would be amazed by some of the internal tools we have developed. I can go on and on...
Our chip software, like the company, has evolved over the years... A couple of years ago, I would say we were 2nd overall in terms of overall power, but a clear first in terms of smoothness and drivability. With some of the developments we have done in the last year, I feel we are on top of the pack on both respects now. Honestly, have you driven a newer Stage III+ car? What about some of our ME9 software??
Getting back to the company philosophy, we are NOT out to make the highest horsepower on our turbo kits. Who give a crap about a car that makes 500whp and lasts for 6 hours?? Most customers are FAAAR more impressed by a bolt on turbokit that makes 300whp and lasts for 300K miles with factory-like reliability and drivability. This is made possible through using 21st century technology, not carryover parts from the 1980's.
Do not base your opinion of us on your experiences from many years ago. Look at what we are doing now and where we are going, and I think even you will be surprised.
Our chip software, like the company, has evolved over the years... A couple of years ago, I would say we were 2nd overall in terms of overall power, but a clear first in terms of smoothness and drivability. With some of the developments we have done in the last year, I feel we are on top of the pack on both respects now. Honestly, have you driven a newer Stage III+ car? What about some of our ME9 software??
Getting back to the company philosophy, we are NOT out to make the highest horsepower on our turbo kits. Who give a crap about a car that makes 500whp and lasts for 6 hours?? Most customers are FAAAR more impressed by a bolt on turbokit that makes 300whp and lasts for 300K miles with factory-like reliability and drivability. This is made possible through using 21st century technology, not carryover parts from the 1980's.
Do not base your opinion of us on your experiences from many years ago. Look at what we are doing now and where we are going, and I think even you will be surprised.
12-23-2005, 06:37 AM
#22
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If U think I dont get your philosophy then you really dont "read" my posts then!
I post on Perf. and Tuning and 1.8t development and Kreummer forums. I do not comment on 'smoothness' and non-power parts. I have also given due on the ONLY chip I am aware you have outperformed the other tuners on. I dont comment on the B5 forum and disturb those who want what you sell. The reason I moved to Audis years ago was that the 2 wh. drive platforms I drove couldnt handle the power I was putting in my engines so I moved to an all wh. platform, then couldnt get the power I wanted. I then started working with the Germans and obtained good power and driveability and got 500 crank from the I5's. I then bought your car after wrecking the URS4. I was not impressed with your 3+ package and sought more and better power, I easily found it and am now in territory that even the Euros cant help much with - so I will go standalone. I think it is fine that you produce everyman power, but so do all the tuners. I also have not been as impressed as you are with your chips when compared with the DB's I am familiar with. The tools you use dont matter to me, the end results do! Tuning a car is an art and there are really only a few that have mastered it. The tools out there to the public via standalone and the tuners thru motronic to adjust every important parameter, the tuner reputation is in what they do with the tools. You havent matched up on the 1.8t's and that is my bottom line point. I dont care how smooth your cars are as the levels of tune you strive for are what I see as "snow tune".
My car is daily run with 420 hp and 400 torque at the wheels on pump gas, considerably more on race, and this is on a modified motronic chip, socketed if you please and is extremely driveable even at hi output. I have no intent to deceive my dealer with a SW switching, when this car pulls into the shop everyone knows it is highly modified. Never once have I said your stuff was not great to drive around with a little more perf.. I object to you and your yip dogs claiming most powerful and best. You may now be, but you havent in the past. I will not have experience with your new stuff bcause I dont like the new cars, and you will never do chips that require a 20k block and the custom fabbed and welded pieces that are required to get er done at my level.Im OK with that, I never expected you to. I do object to the blanket statements of superiority your people state on the lists. You havent done that and I usually only enter the fray when I hear such Bull****. This is the 1st reasonable post I have read from your company where you state you havent been at the top level, and that pure performance is not your goal. This is good, and this is a fine 1st step. I hope you do well with your new philosophy and direction. But I have never attacked you for this, only in regard to statements on 'best chips, most powerful, etc.'.
Good luck, we are not on the same track and I thought I had made that clear to everyone on the list that I was looking to go cutting edge and not middle of pack.
Please lets rest this thread. I wish you luck on everymans chip, and products. I will be making my own when need arises. And by the way, when you can do an engine that will run at 7000rpm making over 550crank and do it for 6 continous hours like mine then you will have done a truly impressive machine that anyone would want if they know enough about it.
Bye bye and good luck, you have stated a clear course for your company, communicate it to your customers so that they dont state 'ultimate perf. crap' and all these words will have been worth my effort.
Rod
My car is daily run with 420 hp and 400 torque at the wheels on pump gas, considerably more on race, and this is on a modified motronic chip, socketed if you please and is extremely driveable even at hi output. I have no intent to deceive my dealer with a SW switching, when this car pulls into the shop everyone knows it is highly modified. Never once have I said your stuff was not great to drive around with a little more perf.. I object to you and your yip dogs claiming most powerful and best. You may now be, but you havent in the past. I will not have experience with your new stuff bcause I dont like the new cars, and you will never do chips that require a 20k block and the custom fabbed and welded pieces that are required to get er done at my level.Im OK with that, I never expected you to. I do object to the blanket statements of superiority your people state on the lists. You havent done that and I usually only enter the fray when I hear such Bull****. This is the 1st reasonable post I have read from your company where you state you havent been at the top level, and that pure performance is not your goal. This is good, and this is a fine 1st step. I hope you do well with your new philosophy and direction. But I have never attacked you for this, only in regard to statements on 'best chips, most powerful, etc.'.
Good luck, we are not on the same track and I thought I had made that clear to everyone on the list that I was looking to go cutting edge and not middle of pack.
Please lets rest this thread. I wish you luck on everymans chip, and products. I will be making my own when need arises. And by the way, when you can do an engine that will run at 7000rpm making over 550crank and do it for 6 continous hours like mine then you will have done a truly impressive machine that anyone would want if they know enough about it.
Bye bye and good luck, you have stated a clear course for your company, communicate it to your customers so that they dont state 'ultimate perf. crap' and all these words will have been worth my effort.
Rod
12-24-2005, 11:51 AM
#23
I've read your posts...
I would like to see a graph of your engine running at that power for 6 hours straight. I severly doubt your turbo was at full spool for 6 hours non-stop to produce those power levels....if so please show us... that would be very impressive especially with the amount of gas consumption I am sure that requires.
You really are out of place in your statements...
First, what you have SPENT your money on, not developed is a nice setup, and I can understand your constant need to justify its "superiority" to the masses given the amount of money you put into it.
You point that APR doesn't know how to tune a car I find to be very uneducated... fact is the gearhead type tuners, and non-engineers you are referring to generally work with the just one or two tables (air/fuel and timing tables) and make a chip that drives and works, not necessarily within all the stock like parameters. Third, you continue to base your opinions of APR on the test mule you bought. It wasnt a race car, it wasnt a production car... it was a "hey let's try this" car...that was pretty much treated like most people treat a winter beater...
Finally I dont think APR has ever claimed to be the highest power chip on the market... fact is most people look at peak numbers and not area under the curve (that's what makes speed) Each tuner has a "style" some want to ride the hairy line, where the car's response is semi-erradic but "within the limits" others tune for smoothness... Everyone has their tastes.
I'm glad you are going to stand alone on your car...but I have to ask why? You have a dahlback kit, and you continually claim they make the best tuning, can't be compared to, and are the only ones that know how to tune a car... if so why are you looking to go to standalone that will have more variables, and you will have to learn to use?
You really are out of place in your statements...
First, what you have SPENT your money on, not developed is a nice setup, and I can understand your constant need to justify its "superiority" to the masses given the amount of money you put into it.
You point that APR doesn't know how to tune a car I find to be very uneducated... fact is the gearhead type tuners, and non-engineers you are referring to generally work with the just one or two tables (air/fuel and timing tables) and make a chip that drives and works, not necessarily within all the stock like parameters. Third, you continue to base your opinions of APR on the test mule you bought. It wasnt a race car, it wasnt a production car... it was a "hey let's try this" car...that was pretty much treated like most people treat a winter beater...
Finally I dont think APR has ever claimed to be the highest power chip on the market... fact is most people look at peak numbers and not area under the curve (that's what makes speed) Each tuner has a "style" some want to ride the hairy line, where the car's response is semi-erradic but "within the limits" others tune for smoothness... Everyone has their tastes.
I'm glad you are going to stand alone on your car...but I have to ask why? You have a dahlback kit, and you continually claim they make the best tuning, can't be compared to, and are the only ones that know how to tune a car... if so why are you looking to go to standalone that will have more variables, and you will have to learn to use?
12-25-2005, 07:43 AM
#25
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its not european vs american tuning, its european cars against american ones...
we cant fight each other when weve got a much bigger battle of **** talking to win, and thats trashing american cars...
btw
the mtm chip makes 183 hp
the dahlback chip makes 193 hp
the apr chip makes 200 to 208 depending on the variant of 1.8t
btw
the mtm chip makes 183 hp
the dahlback chip makes 193 hp
the apr chip makes 200 to 208 depending on the variant of 1.8t
12-28-2005, 08:37 AM
#27
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My last words on this!!!!!!!! - long and final
WJM wrote:
"I would like to see a graph of your engine running at that power for 6 hours straight. I severly doubt your turbo was at full spool for 6 hours non-stop to produce those power levels....if so please show us... that would be very impressive especially with the amount of gas consumption I am sure that requires."
Of course I never ran this car on a dynop for 6 continous hours, but the block was built to run a 24 hour endurance race, and I personally beleive it would. I did not mean to imply mine was tested at this level. It was more a response to Tom/APR's statement:
"Who give a crap about a car that makes 500whp and lasts for 6 hours??"
And my point was that anyone who knew about engines would want this - altho few would pay to have it done at that level.
Your other comment:
"First, what you have SPENT your money on, not developed is a nice setup, and I can understand your constant need to justify its "superiority" to the masses given the amount of money you put into it."
I have not merely spent, I was very involved in the development of the block to handle 600WHP and wind to 9000rpm, including all aspects of the specs, prep and components. Also quite a few parts on this car were developed for this car, and have subsequently been made available for purchase. The superiority of this block has more to do with the work done up front than the amount of money I spent on it, and I really dont feel a need to justify it to anyone. Its my money, I earned it and will spend it any way I choose without a need for approval. I enjoy pushing the edge upward.
Addressing another point in you post:
"Finally I dont think APR has ever claimed to be the highest power chip on the market... fact is most people look at peak numbers and not area under the curve (that's what makes speed)."
My main problem is not what APR has said but what the people say about their product.. The coments I have read here point to their superiority, which has not been shown or can be proven, as a matter of fact quite a few comparisons I know of show otherwise.
You also said:
"fact is the gearhead type tuners, and non-engineers you are referring to generally work with the just one or two tables (air/fuel and timing tables) and make a chip that drives and works, not necessarily within all the stock like parameters."
All I can say is you know a lower class of gearhead than I hang with. Those I know tune with Autronic, Motec, FAST, etc. and use and understand all the parameters availabe from current engine sensors. I dont know how much you have worked with engineers who dont know cars but I find they are very good at doing solutions that dont have problems, the gearheads are very familiar with the problems and find ways to use engineering to solve them.
Lastly you asked/commented:
"I'm glad you are going to stand alone on your car...but I have to ask why? You have a dahlback kit, and you continually claim they make the best tuning, can't be compared to, and are the only ones that know how to tune a car... if so why are you looking to go to standalone that will have more variables, and you will have to learn to use?"
I have to this point have used a DB chip 'off the shelf" and available for you to purchase rated at 420 crank. I have tested this chip to 419whp. Admittedly using one of the strongest blocks built for this app. and parts that were done for pure perf., but what other tuners offer a chip that even comes close? DB chips normally test close to 20% higher than they claim with excellent driveability and less knock voltage (about half).
As to the reason why I am going standalone, 1st I am going to a Garrett turbo which go's beyond the level of anything DB has made. Why would I wish to do dyno runs here, send info there and wait for new chips when I can do whatever he does while the car is on the dyno. Also, motronic will not wind the engine above 7200 rpm. I have done Motec engines and embrace the parameters and adjustability it offers, I certainly dont see this as a disadvantage. Also, flat shift, launch control, better fuel and timing control, etc, etc are not offered with Motronic, even the motorsports stuff to my knowledge.
Bottom line, I dont have a problem with APR doing what they said in the last message, everymans car. I do have a problem with the unrealistic and untrue claims that people post for those who dont have the knowledge to sift thru.
I quit, I have aired my points. I will go my own way knowing few will follow. I will post my #'s and the innovations I choose to share. I will make no more replys to this thread as it has gone too far as it is. I can think of only 5-6 on this list who have any wish to go where we are now let alone where we are going, so as I have said before AW'ers can spread the manure without my further comments.
Rod
"I would like to see a graph of your engine running at that power for 6 hours straight. I severly doubt your turbo was at full spool for 6 hours non-stop to produce those power levels....if so please show us... that would be very impressive especially with the amount of gas consumption I am sure that requires."
Of course I never ran this car on a dynop for 6 continous hours, but the block was built to run a 24 hour endurance race, and I personally beleive it would. I did not mean to imply mine was tested at this level. It was more a response to Tom/APR's statement:
"Who give a crap about a car that makes 500whp and lasts for 6 hours??"
And my point was that anyone who knew about engines would want this - altho few would pay to have it done at that level.
Your other comment:
"First, what you have SPENT your money on, not developed is a nice setup, and I can understand your constant need to justify its "superiority" to the masses given the amount of money you put into it."
I have not merely spent, I was very involved in the development of the block to handle 600WHP and wind to 9000rpm, including all aspects of the specs, prep and components. Also quite a few parts on this car were developed for this car, and have subsequently been made available for purchase. The superiority of this block has more to do with the work done up front than the amount of money I spent on it, and I really dont feel a need to justify it to anyone. Its my money, I earned it and will spend it any way I choose without a need for approval. I enjoy pushing the edge upward.
Addressing another point in you post:
"Finally I dont think APR has ever claimed to be the highest power chip on the market... fact is most people look at peak numbers and not area under the curve (that's what makes speed)."
My main problem is not what APR has said but what the people say about their product.. The coments I have read here point to their superiority, which has not been shown or can be proven, as a matter of fact quite a few comparisons I know of show otherwise.
You also said:
"fact is the gearhead type tuners, and non-engineers you are referring to generally work with the just one or two tables (air/fuel and timing tables) and make a chip that drives and works, not necessarily within all the stock like parameters."
All I can say is you know a lower class of gearhead than I hang with. Those I know tune with Autronic, Motec, FAST, etc. and use and understand all the parameters availabe from current engine sensors. I dont know how much you have worked with engineers who dont know cars but I find they are very good at doing solutions that dont have problems, the gearheads are very familiar with the problems and find ways to use engineering to solve them.
Lastly you asked/commented:
"I'm glad you are going to stand alone on your car...but I have to ask why? You have a dahlback kit, and you continually claim they make the best tuning, can't be compared to, and are the only ones that know how to tune a car... if so why are you looking to go to standalone that will have more variables, and you will have to learn to use?"
I have to this point have used a DB chip 'off the shelf" and available for you to purchase rated at 420 crank. I have tested this chip to 419whp. Admittedly using one of the strongest blocks built for this app. and parts that were done for pure perf., but what other tuners offer a chip that even comes close? DB chips normally test close to 20% higher than they claim with excellent driveability and less knock voltage (about half).
As to the reason why I am going standalone, 1st I am going to a Garrett turbo which go's beyond the level of anything DB has made. Why would I wish to do dyno runs here, send info there and wait for new chips when I can do whatever he does while the car is on the dyno. Also, motronic will not wind the engine above 7200 rpm. I have done Motec engines and embrace the parameters and adjustability it offers, I certainly dont see this as a disadvantage. Also, flat shift, launch control, better fuel and timing control, etc, etc are not offered with Motronic, even the motorsports stuff to my knowledge.
Bottom line, I dont have a problem with APR doing what they said in the last message, everymans car. I do have a problem with the unrealistic and untrue claims that people post for those who dont have the knowledge to sift thru.
I quit, I have aired my points. I will go my own way knowing few will follow. I will post my #'s and the innovations I choose to share. I will make no more replys to this thread as it has gone too far as it is. I can think of only 5-6 on this list who have any wish to go where we are now let alone where we are going, so as I have said before AW'ers can spread the manure without my further comments.
Rod
12-28-2005, 08:08 PM
#28
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(blank stare) Wow....(takes off jacket and checks boots) This floor is covered in
****. Rod, best of luck...hope it works out well for ya (being serious). My question, after reading all this yelling back and forth, what are you building your car for. Track..drag...play thing. I'm just curious.
01-07-2006, 10:48 PM
#29
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the funny thing is rod had one of the Original APR 3+ cars, now he has dahlback and thinks they
hung the moon. he used to be like that with APR. but has always had a "someone pissed in my wheaties attitude."
